Interview: To Busk Or Not To Busk Director Antonio G. Wagner On Music, Politics, & Humanity

To Busk or Not to Busk is a 15-minute long documentary short that follows John Goodblood and Kevin Zi-Xiao as they busk on the streets and talk about what draws them to this genre of music. I sat down for a virtual interview with director Antonio G. Wagner to discuss how he came across these amazing musicians, what’s the relation between music and politics, and more.

Film Fugitives: How did you come across John Goodblood and Kevin Zi-Xiao, and how did you convince them to be a part of your documentary?

Antonio G. Wagner: During the development phase when I was trying to find subjects that matched that contrast of ideals that I was looking for, a friend told me about how a guitarist I had met once, John Goodblood, also happened to be a consistent busker for years. Around a week later, when leaving a mall and suddenly hearing someone play Studio Ghibli music on the cello, that was Kevin Zi-Xiao He. His commanding presence was enough for me to just cold approach him. After meeting up with both subjects and sharing my approach to helming the film along with the impact I wanted it to have for the busking community, I’m glad my wild pitch got them convinced.

FF: What was the thought process behind juxtaposing the scenes of Goodblood and Zi-Xiao on the streets with them in the studio? Also, how did you zero-in on the aesthetics of the scenes shot in the studio?

Antonio: Since one of the film’s goals was to enhance the general perception of buskers, it was important to create an unconventional viewing experience that encouraged audiences to admire them as they would mainstream musicians. Thus, by placing viewers into the subjects’ psychological perspective and presenting them with the same professional studio aesthetic associated with established artists. The theatrical, void-like look, achieved through specific camera and lighting choices, was central to this vision. Then, returning to the street perspective of the subjects makes that impact even stronger, leaving viewers surprised that such performances they highly regarded came from buskers.

FF: Did the contrast between Goodblood and Zi-Xiao’s tone and worldview impact your storytelling?

Antonio: Honestly, the cello/guitar instrument difference and their taste in music was enough for me to think that they were distinct enough buskers. However, upon witnessing their performance process and hearing the context through the interviews, that definitely impacted the storytelling for how well they provide that yin and yang dynamic that I was looking for. How you can get two completely different people in personality and background, but they still connect by sharing those same ideals of busking to bring the liveliness out of people. Given the ideal runtime of fifteen minutes as well, it was easier for them to leave an impact by giving each of their stories enough screen time, whereas having more subjects in this film would prevent that.

FF: I found John linking music to anti-establishment sentiments to be relatable. How do you perceive artists who, in this day and age, are using their music as an extension of their anti-establishment politics versus those artists who are using their music to be pro-establishment?

Antonio: Regardless of how an artist feels about the current political landscape, especially with how it affects their music process, I’m always someone in favor of free speech for artists to put their work out the way they intended. Especially for those who use their art as a reflection of reality to bring societal change. Over time, the power of art is undeniable for how it can influence how people interact/respond to a specific subject, whether that’s the intent of the artist or not. My subjects again seem like they have opposing motives with the music they make, which is part of what makes them fascinating. Their stance is definitely made clear once you hear about how they each talk about busking permits.

FF: Kevin’s opinion on how his music offers peace to someone who is fighting an internal battle is so thoughtful. Do you think the decreasing interest in humanities, arts, & social sciences in educational institutions is systemic so that we never acquire true peace and stay in a constant state of agitation? 

Antonio: I mean, I don’t necessarily blame people’s declining interest in pursuing degrees that are not considered as safe for obtaining long-term financial security. Our subjects are aware of this and still choose to pursue spending much of their time busking, which is time that could’ve been allocated to working a job with guaranteed income each hour. As someone that believes in autonomy, everyone should have a right to live their life how they want. It depends on you knowing or making a plan if your chosen career can support your desired lifestyle. The arts will still always have their importance in society, since there’s a codependency between those who pursue that life and those in agitation who might have stronger financial stability.

FF: Which genre of music makes you peaceful and which genre of music makes you vent your frustrations?

Antonio: While composing, I try to imagine how the tempo, layering, and choice of instruments can best reflect the surroundings and context of a scene. Throughout this process, I end up being consistently drawn to compose in a classical leitmotif style, which happens to be the genre I find to be the most timeless and soothing to listen to, alongside some melodic rock and jazz. I wouldn’t say I’m the kind of person who needs to listen to music during every silent or frustrated moment in my life to be at peace though. Even going for a quiet drive or walk is a habit of mine to get rid of an overwhelmed or anxious feeling. Meanwhile, there’s people I know who can’t imagine not having music playing during these activities.

FF: We see a lot of people interacting with John and Kevin. But are there any interactions that you really wanted to keep in the film but had to leave on the cutting room floor to maintain the flow of the film?

Antonio: Honestly, it’s been a while since the film was edited where even upon seeing the raw footage during post-production, I saw us capture spontaneous interactions that I had forgotten about while shooting. We weren’t expecting all the wide variety of interactions while filming, and all the essential ones are what made it to the final cut. Whatever didn’t make it was essentially just an extension of an interaction that was cut down for the final product. While finding complimentary performance footage to the interview, I felt like we got lucky getting specific audience reactions/interactions that only makes their points more resonating, when seeing them actually experience what they describe.

FF: Do you remember the first piece of music that made you realize that you love this artform?

Antonio: There must’ve been some piece of music from a very young age that I should remember that left an impact on me. However, I can recall a more recent example as to what led me to start composing. After years of giving up piano for guitar, I was watching Stanley Kubrick’s Barry Lyndon for the first time and I remember a reoccurring piece being played from Schubert. How it was used in the film left such an impact on me that I couldn’t get it out of my head. Thus, it led me to wanna learn the piece on the piano where I could listen to it and start playing the corresponding keys. I remember my mom hearing me play and wanting to put me back in piano lessons to which I was more enthusiastic about. From there, I learned so much about reading and writing musical notation that my confidence started developing to compose music myself. 

FF: What kind of music do you dislike and why?

Antonio: It’s not like I deliberately dislike some genres of music, I just tend to enjoy listening to some more than others. Also being a composer, I love listening to classical and instrumental music, featuring catchy melodies where I naturally pick up on what instruments are being played and like hearing how they’re layered. That tends to gravitate my interest more than songs more reliant on vocals and beats. Maybe rap is the closest genre that’s not to my preference, even if there’s rap music that I very much admire (like work from Lin-Manuel Miranda). I’ll just say that when talking about my subjects, you should know if it’s Kevin Zi-Xiao He’s or John Gooblood’s music that’s more of my taste. 

FF: What are your thoughts on music streaming services or even music studios opening the doors to generative-AI remixes and songs entirely made of generative-AI topping certain charts?

Antonio: Well, it’s hard to deny the fact that the evolution of technology is only going to continue. With every passing day, telling the difference if a piece of music is A.I.-generated or not feels like it’s only getting harder. Being a tool that makes the workflow easier, it seems like it’s not going away no matter the controversies and we’re gonna be forced to live with it. However, music streaming services have leverage to be benevolent and let their users know what’s A.I.-generated and what’s not, hence why I believe there should be clear labels for each piece of music differentiating this. You know what’s something that A.I. music can’t replace: busking. Something that requires real people playing real instruments in real environments for real spectators. Even after watching my film, it seems like the most humane experience one can have with music.